Meet the mastermind behind 'Mamma Mia!' — the musical that's been playing in London for 25 years

• Judy Craymer came up with the idea of using Abba songs in a musical — and won the band's permission.

• "Mamma Mia!" has been playing in London for 25 years and ran on Broadway for 14 years.

• The musical has spawned two "Mamma Mia!" movies — and Craymer wants to do a third film. 

Meryl Streep, Pierce Brosnan, and Colin Firth are just some of the big names Judy Craymer has worked with as the producer of "Mamma Mia!" — the movie that cost just over $50 million but took almost $700 million. That made it one of 2008's biggest hits.

The movie was an adaptation of the musical of the same name, which Craymer dreamed up, and opened in London almost a decade earlier.

"Mamma Mia!" took its title from the Abba song that gave the Swedish group their second UK No. 1 in 1975, but Craymer says the idea was sparked by the lyrics of another single, "The Winner Takes It All." The bittersweet tale of a soured relationship was Abba's eighth UK chart-topper and final US top 10 hit.

Craymer knew Benny Andersson and Bj?rn Ulvaeus of Abba already after working with them in the 1980s on "Chess," the musical they wrote with Tim Rice. This familiarity meant Cramer didn't have to run the gauntlet of agents.

I asked Craymer if it was hard to convince them to let her use their songs in a musical. "It just took a long time, and to give them their due I had no track record apart from I worked in theatre," she says. "I was very fortunate that the composers could see what I was trying to do. We created a musical comedy — those songs are tongue-in-cheek."

She brought on playwright Catherine Johnson to write the book, and Phyllida Lloyd as director, and the show premiered in London in April 1999. It's one of only three musicals to run for more than 25 years in the West End. "Mamma Mia!" also notched up almost 5,800 performances on Broadway between 2001 and 2015.

"I thought it would work, but that's the best you can hope for," says Craymer. "The story still speaks to people — it's still relevant," adding: "There's nothing better than real word of mouth — that's what has kept us going for 25 years."

The musical's success led to a big screen "Mamma Mia!" in 2008 that Craymer coproduced and was again written and directed by Johnson and Lloyd. She says Andersson and Ulvaeus "liked the team and felt happy and safe, and that's what I wanted them to feel. I'm not just a producer — I'm trying to take care of them because if they're not happy, they could pull the rug."

How hard was it to convince Streep, by then a two-time Oscar winner, to come on board? After she plucked up the courage to ask her, it was "surprisingly easy" Craymer responded.

Streep had just appeared in "The Devil Wears Prada" and Craymer says she and Lloyd really wanted her to play Donna in the film after seeing her singing and pulling a wagon in a production of Bertolt Brecht's "Mother Courage and her Children" in New York. After breaking with convention by calling Streep's agent directly, the pair met with the actor for coffee. "So do you want me?" Streep asked them, Craymer recalls, adding, "We squealed a lot" after her response.

The film's huge success meant a sequel was always on the cards — and "Mamma Mia! Here We Go Again" followed a decade later, adding Cher to the cast (playing Donna's mother) and taking around $400 million on a budget of $75 million.

Speaking of Cher, Craymer sips on an Aqua de Madre pink grapefruit and lime water kefir while we speak in her central London office, which is filled with "Mamma Mia!" promotional items and pictures. She says Cher put her on to the drink while shooting the sequel (I had one too, and it's very refreshing indeed).

A Cher biopic is in the works, with a script written but casting yet to be revealed. Craymer says it's a "big life" to try to fit into 110 minutes.

Another project also in the works is a third "Mamma Mia!" film, which she thinks could be an "event movie" given its broad appeal. "A lot of stars are aligned — I really want there to be another one. It's something in my sights to do."

Craymer, 66, says the cast are always being asked about another "Mamma Mia!" no matter what project they're promoting. "Meryl was saying in Cannes 'oh yeah there will be another one' — and then Pierce is on the phone going "what's she saying?'" before laughing loudly.

Some wonder if there are enough Abba songs left for another film, but the group helpfully released a new album in late 2021 (their first new music in 40 years) that contains a couple of tracks you could imagine being used ("I Still Have Faith In You" and "Don't Shut Me Down.")

Both songs also appear in the Abba Voyage "concert," which has been playing in a purpose-built venue in London for just over two years. It uses breathtakingly effective technology, along with a live band, that makes you almost believe the four members of Abba are up there on the stage.

While Craymer says Abba Voyage is "great entertainment," she thinks AI poses a threat to the creative industries that require stronger copyright laws to protect artists' likenesses: "It has to be controlled."

The pandemic and the Hollywood strikes were a double whammy for the entertainment industry, but she's hopeful that seeing a live performance remains compelling for audiences: "You can't download theatre, you can't AI theatre — you have to go."

Craymer says the "Mamma Mia!" movies continue to drive particularly younger audiences to see the musical (the UK and international tour hits the 20-year mark in September, while another is playing in North America).

'Incredibly exciting'

Had she listened to her father, Craymer might have ended up being a lawyer like him. However, in 1977, she heard about the stage management course at London's Guildhall School of Drama, decided to apply, and got accepted. "It was a great entry into messing about backstage and learning the craft — it was incredibly exciting," she recalls. "When I started as a stage manager I always liked hanging out with the actors — but I never wanted to be one."

Her career saw her work with Cameron Mackintosh and Andrew Lloyd Webber, and she was involved in the original West End production of "Cats" in 1981.

"You certainly don't go into theatre to make money, or any of the creative industries. You need to love it. And if you do make money and you can pay the rent that's fantastic." Craymer recalls once trying to explain to a potential investor that they might not get their money back if the show wasn't a success: "I thought I was going to be kneecapped. It's tough doing theatre - it's such a risk."

In addition to running Littlestar Services, the company set up in 1996 with Andersson, Ulvaeus, and Richard East to produce the "Mamma Mia!" musical, Craymer had a stint as chair of Universal Music that spanned its stock market debut in September 2021. (You may have guessed that Abba is on Universal Music.)

Being asked by CEO Lucian Grainge to chair the board was an "incredible honor," she says, adding: "I was probably chosen because I was good with personalities — I understand the artists, and I understand the business."

Craymer's role sometimes involves dealing with requests from the talent — or the co-owners. Earlier on the day we met she recalls a request from Ulvaeus that crossed her desk. "I want to show the movie under the stars in Sweden," Craymer says he asked. She called him back and said "OK, we'll allow that … just checking it was you.'"

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