‘Harry Potter,’ ‘Big Little Lies’ and What Not to Pitch Now: HBO’s Programming Team Tells All
“I feel like this is the HBO/Max Sister Wives episode,” HBO executive vp Nina Rosenstein says during a late February gathering of the all-female leadership of HBO and Max’s original programming team.
To date, the sextet, all of whom report directly to Casey Bloys, chairman and CEO of HBO and Max Content, have collectively spent nearly 140 years working for the blue-chip brand. Their leadership, which spans drama (Francesca Orsi), comedy (Amy Gravitt), IP (Sarah Aubrey), docs (Lisa Heller and Nancy Abraham) and late night and specials (Rosenstein), has resulted in an Emmy-drenched slate that includes The White Lotus, The Last of Us, Hacks and Last Week Tonight With John Oliver.
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“The success of our originals slate has been driven by the incredible vision and creativity of these six outstanding leaders,” says Bloys, whose praise continues via email: “Their innovation and dedication continue to shape the future of entertainment, delivering groundbreaking programming across genres and formats in their respective areas of expertise that resonates with audiences globally.”
Zooming from their New York and L.A. offices on the eve of International Women’s Day, the six department heads sound off on shrinking budgets, infuriating pitches and talent they’ve approached relentlessly.
What are you all getting pitched too much of and, conversely, not enough of?
FRANCESCA ORSI We still are trying to transition into the ongoing contemporary space versus the limited one.
Still just a ton of miniseries coming your way?
ORSI Continually, and then there are those that say, “Well, this is a limited, but in success we could figure it out or shoehorn it.” No, we are looking for ongoing series, which seem to be difficult for various writers out there. We’re on the hunt.
SARAH AUBREY Wouldn’t you say that the contemporary soap that doesn’t have a murder or crime engine inside of it is the hardest thing to do and to find? Because you have to find something that drives it forward every episode with real stakes to it, and if you don’t have someone dying, what else is happening? Are you just upset about carpool? So, it’s really about finding the worlds and the creators who can do that with character. But I find, right now, because we’ve certainly opened the door to doing what I call close-ended storytelling — others may call it procedurals — and inside of that we are still trying to find very strong reasons for those shows to feel singular and not a Xerox copy of something that’s come before. I think people are a little surprised when we’re still poking at the creative of that.
AMY GRAVITT In the comedy space, every pitch is some sort of crime caper comedy, and maybe I’m partially responsible because of Barry, but I’m ready for just hard comedies to be pitched. More hard comedies!
LISA HELLER We have a steady flow of murder coming in every day. But we’re always looking for crime-adjacent or crime-related that exists beyond the crime itself and that illuminates something larger and not just for the murder, but there’s a lot of that!
NANCY ABRAHAM People are always asking about the comps, but in some ways it’s best when there is no comp. We want something that feels new.
ORSI That so true. [For me,] they’re all derivatives of Succession.
You’ve collectively survived multiple regimes. What’s been the biggest challenge to this one?
AUBREY Our challenges are specific to us, in some respects, but the whole business has lived through an earthquake going back to a couple years ago when it just became apparent that everyone can’t just spend like a tech company, making as many shows as you can, as fast as you can. Between that and the strike, there have been seismic shifts, and we all have to deal with those in various ways in our creative lives.
ORSI I like being charged. As much as there was a day of budgets being a bit more robust and now, while they continue to be for a number of shows, there are some shows that we’re being charged with making for far less. I have an example that really took me aback. We’re doing a Game of Throne spinoff titled A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms for under $10 million in episode, [which is peanuts] relative to what Game of Thrones or House of the Dragon cost episodically. And the battle sequences that the directors achieved match those across Game of Thrones and are a fraction of the price, so it’s a lesson for us that we need to be challenging these budgets.
You have rivals who can offer greater reach, bigger budgets and considerably more greenlights. What can HBO offer that those others cannot?
ROSENSTEIN One of the things that we all share is that we are drawn to people who like to take risks and are fearless in some way. I think that’s attractive to creators and artists of any shape and size. They know that we’re going to nurture that, and we are not scared.
GRAVITT And when people come in with a wild idea, they know that we have those years of experience to execute it and it’s not going to go off the rails. Also, we know what our audience expects, and with our colleagues in production, we know how to pull it off. So, the answer is going to be yes to the crazy idea.
ORSI I think as we undergo a process and when we decide to purchase a show, what we know coming out of a pitch or reading a spec is whether a project is sort of interrogating archetypal themes or if it’s interrogating thematic questions that don’t have easy answers. So, it’s a probe of the human spirit or the human experience that feels much more complicated and that yields programming that feels like there’s a layer of complication relative to, say, some other shows that I’ll take in elsewhere that maybe feel broader and more derivative or predictable. So, it’s the way in which we develop and grind material and almost function, all of us, as producers.
Lisa and Nancy, the doc market has exploded in the streaming era, but, increasingly, the focus seems to be on making the most thrilling and dramatic fare, and your rivals are paying through the roof for it. How has it impacted you?
HELLER Having started in 1841 (laughs), I can safely say, we’re doing our thing the way we’ve done our thing. In general, the boon is good for the field. It’s good that people are excited about true stories and think they’re part of the entertainment landscape.
ABRAHAM I do find that people come in and say, like, “This is a three-part series,” “This is a six-part series,” or “This is a feature.” And a lot of times our reaction is, “Well, the story isn’t fully developed yet, and it may even still be unfolding, so let’s just wait.” We’re not looking for a formula or to fit a certain scheduling slot.
HELLER It is funny when people come in with their real story that hasn’t happened yet, pre-formatted. Oftentimes, it’s not until we’re editing that we know what shape it’ll take.
What’s the show you’re most frequently approached about — maybe it’s even by talent eager to be part of it?
ORSI Absolutely White Lotus, to the point where I was recently on a girls trip with a few actresses, and it was so awkward. I love them as people and as friends, but (whew). Everybody’s vying to be in that show. Euphoria as well. The number of incoming calls across those is wild.
Sarah, is it the same true for Harry Potter? And will you consider talent from the original?
AUBREY Yeah, I think it’s a dream job for a lot of actors in the U.K. But the roles that we’re casting right now are for people who are going to be on the show for a decade, so that’s also a very particular gig. But the commitment is to make the books, and that’s what it could be. But there are interesting people raising their hands to be the featured adult actors that come on in later seasons, like the Sirius Blacks of the world. So, it’s been very, very fun, but we don’t want to repeat people that were in the movies. And it’s always a little nerve-wracking because people so associate those roles with certain actors, but I also think because it’s going to be eight hours of TV, we’re going to immerse them in a different actor’s performance.
Who’s the talent you’re dying to be in business with?
ORSI I have a regular check-in on Martin McDonagh, who just is not interested in television. It’s been at least 11 years of check-ins every three months. I’ve not worn him down yet. And Sean Baker. We had a moment of an opportunity, but still not interested in TV.
At this point, how often do you hear someone say, “I’m not interested in TV”?
ORSI Infrequently. So, to get the almost blunt “No,” it’s definitely startling. But you take it stride.
NINA ROSENSTEIN Cole Escola. Anything with Cole.
ORSI Oh, I have check-ins with Jenji Kohan as well. Despite her deep relationship with [former Netflix exec] Cindy Holland, I’m adamant to get in business with her and she knows it. I’ve been relentless, so hopefully one day soon.
At this moment in time, how much pressure is there to focus on Warner Bros. IP, and how has that impacted your collective ability to go after original, prestige fare?
AUBREY Well, I think in a really healthy way, at least on the drama side, I’m tasked with working inside the company on the IP shows and I think it frees Frannie to continue to do what HBO drama has always done, which is look outside in culture and find what’s new and cutting edge. Also, things that come from inside the company have a lot of people involved and a lot of stakeholders, so it’s just a very particular process. I think the thing that all of these women have done for me and the creative community is that I have to say that these [IP-driven]shows have to sit alongside everything that they make, so we still need excellent writers that are diving deep into character, even though there’s this umbrella of IP, or it would just feel out of tune with their standards of quality and complexity. So, that’s the goal. We don’t always achieve it.
Sarah, you referenced all of the stakeholders. Do the DC shows fall entirely to you and your team?
AUBREY That’s right. We work really closely with [DC Studios co-CEOs] Peter [Safran] and James [Gunn] on that. And of course, our colleagues at Warner Brothers Studios.
How about Harry Potter? I keep hearing about all the cooks in that kitchen.
AUBREY No, there are actually the fewest cooks in that kitchen. Many other kitchens have more cooks! (Laughs.) I’ll stop [with the metaphor] but I think that we’ve actually kept that group very tight. I work really closely with Channing [Dungey] and Clancy [Collins White at the studio] and me and Casey [Bloys] and Tom Pojunas [at HBO], and we are very tight with Mark Mylod and Francesca Gardiner and David Hayman and Ruth Kenley-Letts, and that’s the group and that’s who is doing it.
Nina, you recently announced that John Oliver’s main segment would go back to posting online the next day. Beyond placating him, why the reversal?
ROSENSTEIN We tried [holding] it as an experiment and we thought, “Let’s see if it changes anything on the platform.” It was not a significant change, so we just felt like [posting it the next day] keeps the conversation going and it was very important to him, so it was a no-brainer. It’s really made him happy and relieved some stress.
I recently talked to Bill Maher, who praised HBO every which way. In fact, he said he didn’t receive notes, and has fought with you only once (and lost) over a guest he’d wanted to have on. Would you agree with his assessment, and what kind of guest feels presumably too risky or controversial or dangerous for HBO?
ROSENSTEIN It was all those things. And with Bill, it’s his show, it’s his voice, so we really let him do his thing. There are always little things, but nothing that rises to anything that we would feel that strongly about. And I’ve been with him since Politically Incorrect, so that conversation was really like, “How long have we been working together? One time in 25 years isn’t so bad.” And he was like, “You’re right, you got it. No problem.”
Shifting gears, can we get a status update on Big Little Lies season three?
ORSI I can’t wait to get started, but we need the remainder of the book. We have 150 pages in, and [author Liane Moriarty] is doubling down, looking to finish it. There’s a lot of eagerness from both HBO and the producing team, and as soon as it’s done, she’ll hand it over and we’ll adapt it. But until then, we just have to sit tight. So, not quite as imminent as I originally thought.
And how are you feeling about Euphoria’s future? Presumably this is the final season?
ORSI As I recently said in the press, it’s not over until it’s over, and I think that’s all I’ll say. But the dailies are exceptional. I’m very excited to be back.
Sarah, how about The Penguin?
AUBREY Look, [we’re] using the model that Casey and Frannie have deployed many times over many successful limited series: if there is more story to tell, and there may be in that world. But you don’t want to follow up something excellent with something less excellent. And it took a very long time to get this show made and we had many different iterations, so I’m just like, “Can I please just enjoy this for a second?!” But as we say, we never shut the door.
I’m curious, if you could work on something from someone else’s portfolio here, what would it be?
ORSI Amy Gravitt’s The Rehearsal. It’s genius.
ROSENSTEIN Oh, you stole mine.
ABRAHAM Mine too!
GRAVITT Nathan [Fielder] has a next level season coming out that I’m not going to say anything else about but I think it’s going to surprise folks. It goes deep. For me, Nancy and Lisa know this, but literally any of their true crime docs. It’s a goal one day to just be able to be a fly on the wall from beginning to end.
AUBREY For me, it’s White Lotus, and really just watching Frannie’s relationship with [creator] Mike White and what that entails and this kind of global adventure that they’ve been on together. My son is so obsessed with it, too. He was like, “I know who’s shooting the guns: the monkeys.” I’m like, “It’s not the monkeys.” But then I went in, like, “Frannie, is it the monkeys?”
Before I lose you, I thought we’d end this by each pitching your dream locales for the presumed season four of White Lotus.
ROSENSTEIN I think Brooklyn would be interesting.
ABRAHAM Ooh, I vote for Africa.
GRAVITT I like snowy mountains!
AUBREY I like snow, too. I love that movie Force Majeure and that whole vibe of a father running away from his family in an avalanche feels very White Lotus. That can happen and be the kickoff incident.
ORSI I’m taking notes!
A version of this story first appeared in the March 6 issue of The Hollywood Reporter magazine. To receive the magazine, click here to subscribe.
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