‘Conclave’ Director Talks Oscar Buzz, Parallels to U.S. Election: “It Could Take Place in Washington, D.C.”
Edward Berger doesn’t make a movie for awards buzz — but if it happens, it’s a welcome gift. The German-Austrian filmmaker spoke to The Hollywood Reporter about the hype swirling around his latest feature, Conclave.
Ralph Fiennes stars in the religious thriller, based on the 2016 novel of the same name by Robert Harris. The two-time Oscar nominee plays Cardinal Lawrence, the man tasked with overseeing one of the most ancient events in world history: the sequestering of the globe’s cardinals as they elect a new pope.
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With a script by Peter Straughan, what unfolds is a gripping glimpse into the inner workings of the process at the Casa Santa Marta in Vatican City: a group of men, some of whom are grasping at power, while others — Lawrence included — grow increasingly concerned that the honor will fall into the wrong lap. Fiennes’ character deals with tension, scandal and his own struggle with faith as fellow cardinals portrayed by Stanley Tucci, John Lithgow and Sergio Castellitto do nothing to make things easy on him.
Isabella Rossellini portrays a stern and firm Sister Agnes alongside cardinals Carlos Diehz and Lucian Msamati. Conclave, releasing in U.S. theaters on Oct. 25 via Focus Features, has received rave reviews since its premiere at the 51st Telluride Film Festival in August. It later screened in both Venice and San Sebastian, where Berger was in attendance to soak up the love.
THR caught up with the filmmaker — already an Oscar winner for All Quiet on the Western Front (2022) — at the BFI London Film Festival to discuss his mindset heading into awards season; capturing the onscreen magic of Fiennes (as critics deem it his career-best performance); and why comparisons to the looming U.S. election are well founded. “American news is so full of polemics and trying to deride the other side rather than trying to report objective news,” he says. “I can’t watch it.”
Congratulations on a brilliant film. Doubt and religion — why was that such ripe soil for you?
Well, that’s actually what made me do the film. That feeling, that inner journey that Ralph goes through. It is a wonderful topic for a political thriller, not [just] for a religious thriller. This could take place anywhere. It could take place in Washington, D.C., or Downing Street, or a big corporation where the CEO job is vacant. So I think that’s interesting on the surface, but on a much deeper level, I really connected with what Ralph is going through. He says, “I have difficulty with prayer,” and if prayer is at the core of his job, if it’s the essence … it’s almost like if I’m saying I have difficulty believing in what the camera does — the core of what I do. To overcome that and go through this crisis and refine the belief in what you do, [to believe] it has some purpose, I think a lot of us go through it at some point or another in our life. To refine the purity of your job, and refine the purity of your purpose, is a constant struggle. It’s an interesting path to keep recalibrating. And it’s actually a very healthy path to keep recalibrating.
It’s just 100-something cardinals in the world, and one of them will be pope. So being a cardinal comes with a lot of promotions, and promotion comes with having to deal with other things — of why you first started.
There’s a rather platonic theme in this film: A leader should be someone who doesn’t want to lead, who doesn’t want that power. Do you believe the pope should be someone who doesn’t want to be pope?
It’s interesting. I can’t speak for the pope — I’m too ignorant for that. But I do know if, around me, I feel that people want something too much and that the ambition has an egotistical motive … Ambition can be healthy in terms of, “I want to keep exploring different things.” If a pope that is selected does it for those reasons, to keep growing and trying to help others, I think that’s a healthy ambition. But if it’s an ambition to become famous, to become successful and to be more powerful than others, then it is probably dangerous to be the spiritual leader of a big part of the world. So I do think that has some value, that sentiment of, “How do we keep the purity of my congregation?”
There’s also a pendulum swinging in Conclave. You’ve spoken about it in previous interviews as it mirrors the U.S. election — as a society, we swing from left-leaning governments to right-leaning, and back again. Ralph and Stanley’s characters are increasingly worried about the Italian cardinal [Tedesco] and his very traditional views. I wondered if you could talk about how that pendulum transcends religion, politics, everything.
It always happens. And hopefully, it swings the way you want it to swing. But also, what the film really deals with is doubt and certainty, and I think that pendulum also swings both ways. It doesn’t mean that every cardinal, every character in the movie, acts to the best of their conscience. But they are certain in their beliefs, or they believe that what they think is right. Bellini [Tucci’s character] has a certainty that this guy is wrong and that is a certainty as well. And I always think that, in a way, certainty creates antagonism and that’s just going to make the other side stronger.
So there’s a way of trying to understand why the other side is that way and trying to reach out a hand and somehow convince them through diplomacy. But to be overly certain … and I see it in American news. Obviously, when I get [to the U.S.], I’m interested [in] what does Fox News say? Because I can’t believe it. But then I switch to CNN, and it’s not that much better. It’s just because it’s so full of polemics and trying to deride the other side rather than trying to report objective news. I can’t watch either.
What research went into this movie? The conclave is such a mystery to so many people, and this felt like a very authentic glimpse into what happens during those days that the cardinals are sequestered.
We did a lot of research. We obviously have a book that it’s based on and [author] Robert Harris is very good at doing research, and he shared that with us. Then, we have [screenwriter] Peter Straughan, who did a lot of research. I did a lot of tours. I was trying to look at what it really looks like. I had a spiritual teacher, basically a religion teacher, by mine and Ralph’s side. Because we really wanted to get it right in terms of what is known. Because Catholics around the world, priests around the world, they take what they do seriously. I don’t want them to look at Ralph and go, “[Scoffs.] It’s just a stupid movie.” I want them to go, “Wow. They depict my life. And I might agree with it or not, but they got it right.”
And yet, I wanted to create a world that represents Ralph’s journey. So the Casa Santa Marta, for example, we built, and we designed it so that we felt that it looks right for the movie rather than the reality. In real life, it is quite unfilmable. I think it’s not cinematic. It looks like a hostel. I wanted this feeling of symbolizing Ralph’s journey. He goes in this conclave, and he is sequestered, and he doesn’t have any clues from the outside world. It was really wonderful to design a room for him that feels dark. It’s a little bit oppressive, and the shutters go down, and there’s no light, and there’s never any daylight in his room, and all you hear is the buzz of the neon light, this fluorescent [light] above his bed, and his breath. And that’s it. He’s alone with his thoughts and with himself. No phone, no news, no nothing. That’s what the purpose of the conclave is, to be with yourself and with your colleagues and find the Holy Spirit to determine who is the next spiritual leader. In the end, when the shutters rise and he opens the window and he hears feminine laughter from outside, there’s life coming back into the room and into his life, and that creates a positive reaction in him and in the audience. You take those liberties to shape a film.
I want to ask about your interpretation of the pope that is finally elected in Conclave and, without any spoilers, what it means.
I can talk about it more generally. I think the film talks about the role of women in the church with Isabella’s role, and how that is, maybe to some people, a bit foreign. When she speaks, I think she speaks her mind, the truth, and we want to applaud her because finally, someone says it so obviously. The relationship between femininity, masculinity, doubt — which is maybe seen as weakness, maybe seen as a feminine quality. So that femininity versus masculinity, it does have a big role in this film.
We have a movie that takes place in the oldest patriarchal society in the world or the oldest institution in the world. And what Isabella or some other elements in the film mean to me is that institution, that structure, gets a crack, and maybe that crack lets some light in and that’s how the future could look. We could benefit from that light and that additional perspective. And again, it’s a perspective of uncertainty, of being in not one, not the other, but in between worlds.
I know that Conclave is getting a lot of awards buzz. There’s Oscar talk about Ralph, and about you. Can you talk about Ralph’s performance and your hopes coming into awards season?
It’s really easy to talk about Ralph’s performance because I just love watching what he does. I mean, basically, he plays this role because one day, we woke up, and we thought: “You know who should play this? Ralph Fiennes.” Because Ralph Fiennes is someone that when I look into his eyes, he invites me into his interior life. He lets me know what he’s thinking without saying anything, and this character doesn’t say that much. He mostly listens and looks and reacts and tries to organize, tries to manage, reluctantly. So he doesn’t want to stand in the line. He wants to be in the back seat. Other people are more active. Stanley is louder. John Lithgow is louder. Ralph is like an Englishman in the background. And for that to work, you need someone who has that capability of inviting us in. And, to me, it’s just a miracle of sitting behind the camera and watching him and going, “Wow.” And all l want to do is share that with you. My responsibility is putting the camera in the right place so I make sure I don’t lose a single drop of that water, that magic, and hand it over to you.
In terms of Oscar things, I really don’t bother. It’s always nice and wonderful and flattering and everything, but you don’t make a movie for it. It sounds stupid, but you just want to make a movie and hope it works, and anything else that comes after is an added gift. We’ll see what happens. If it has longer legs, that’s wonderful because more people will see it and we can celebrate together.
Has the reaction so far surprised you? I’m sure life has changed a lot since All Quiet on the Western Front, but has Conclave been on a whole other level?
Yes, because being a moviemaker is so intimate. You make a movie, there’s a tiny group of people, there’s a producer, there’s an editor, there’s a composer. That’s about the people who see it, four or five people, and then you invite others, another 10, another 15. That’s it. A small group of people, friends, your partners, eventually, and you rely on their reaction. You think, “OK, it seems to be done. I don’t know what to do anymore. Why don’t we finish up and now hand it over to you?” So you can’t ever expect or plan a reaction, you can’t rely on your friends and producers because they’re so close to you, and they’ve seen the movie so many times.
So it’s a magical thing. You put out a film and hope that it finds fertile ground, and when it does, you’re happily surprised, because you never know. You can’t plan laughter. You can’t plan emotion. You can do it to the best of your ability. You hope that people will be engaged, but you never know. So it’s lovely when that pays off.
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